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Religious Refugees by Mark Gregory Karris, review

Honestly acknowledges the reality of deconstruction that is actively happening now among many Christians and specifically asks deep questions about problematic areas of the bible for modern Christians. Author is aware of some of the greats in this area ( Kathy Escobar - Faith shift & Marlene Winelle - leaving the fold ) and walks part of the way with them.

From a Christian POV this is better than the Shack and indeed 99% of the books out there that seek to deal with questions relating to their faith. There are many excellent insights and this book should be required reading for current Christians.

From an ex Christian or atheist POV there is way too much reconstruction, like unto (usefully) throwing some deck chairs on the Titanic and rearranging the leftovers to make the (imagined) captain look good.

I wonder where this will end? The feel of I must doubt and I must stop doubting was oppressive. Putting the Jenga tower back together might be a failed project. Interesting glimpse into an active ongoing process here while simultaneously struggling to hold onto something that might not exist.

Disclosure : PDF copy of book kindly provided by the author. 

see below for fuller reviews by others and purchase details 

The disorienting season of deconstructing and reconstructing one’s faith - The San Diego Union-Tribune

Religious Refugees: (De)Constructing Toward Spiritual and Emotional Healing: Karris, Mark Gregory: 9781938480553: Amazon.com: Books

Saying No To God , new book by Matthew Korpman

No Fear, No Trembling.

Korpman walks beyond Kierkegaard's leap.

He asks: can one say no to God and answers - Yes, sometimes it must be yes. 

This book is a loud No to fundamentalism, it is a radical step away from literalism and bibliolatry.

Not since Desmond Ford has an academic with a seventh day Adventist background set such a
challenge to his home church. There are implications for broader christianty, potentially for other
theisms also.

The lens used to view the bible is good first, god second.

Cherry picking yet in practical terms done in a good way. There's a loud no to texts saying god says
slaughter the neighboring tribes, huge no to homophobia, nay to misogyny, slams patriarchy etc.

Tools are provided for dissecting “difficult texts”, there's a great selection of specific ones highlighted 
(atheists and non Christians might have a field day with these as gotchas) but there is an override
provided; ie if its not good then don't do it. 

The book’s single most powerful idea (distilled into the title) is to be able to say no, to say no in a good
way, to not be a slave to ancient ideas. 

It remains to be seen if this leads to more open minded Christians, hopefully less fundamentalist ones,
who knows, maybe some ex Christians eventually? 

Written for a christian audience it does not question whether or not a god exists. Atheists could simply
say, take it one step further: Saying “No God”.

Influenced by Rob Bell and Peter Rollins yet goes beyond them. Less fluff , more substance. 

Disclosure, I am an ex seventh day Adventist.  

Thanks to the author for bravely providing this loud atheist an advance copy to review. 

Peter Veitch the Postatheist Nurse and admin of Sdafightclub facebook group

available from quoir at Saying no to god or amazon and other booksellers

Ex Religious Discussion Group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ExReligiousDiscussion/

My reflections: excellent talk by Joe, with discussion and interaction Moderated by Les from Vic Humanists.

Fascinating to meet ex religious people from other than my own "ex SDA" background.
There was an interesting diversity re experiences and views, some, including myself are repelled by the word "spiritual" others not. It annoys me that secular "spiritual support" falls under exactly that label but I don't have another suggestion ATM. I'm good with the concept of awe etc, lots of great stuff in the talk. I will ask for a text version if there is one.

Sitting in a circle was interesting, felt a bit like AA ( at least as I have seen it represented in media). I guess it is similar in terms of giving up something that is bad for you yet different somehow. I am not addicted to religion or the gods and have no need to be supported off the "addiction". It was excellent to hear other people's views.

I don't think I personally need " ex religious support", I have been out of religion for almost a decade and am fine with this. I do think it is excellent to get networked and be able to point out resources etc. Perhaps it is time to expand various ex religious groups from simply ex SDA, ex JW, ex Jewish, ex Muslim etc and all work together?

I think there is a huge shortage of information and support for ex religious people, for non religious people in "spiritual care" etc. During the meeting I was pondering this and also the idea of those in what Ryan Bell calls the in between spaces or perhaps described by Kathy Escobar as a faith shift, ie less religious or differently religious; people who do not fit in a church but are not fully ex religious.Where do seventh day Adventists go if they reject Ellen White for example? or if they do not hold to the official young earth creation as the official church stance does?

Perhaps an ex religious group can have various networking opportunities  for support, information sharing, activism etc ?

( Side note, I heard that sanitarium pays tax in NZ, I will have to check sources in case I have mislead people. Humble pie on standby) 





https://www.facebook.com/groups/ExReligiousDiscussion/

Comment from Lara Kaput:

Flow ...
Today at the meet-up were former members of the Catholics, Evangelicals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jewish Orthodox, Mormons, Muslims, and Seventh Day Adventists. Plus the husband of a Scientologist and (shock horror): current Atheists.
We enjoyed morning tea together, and afterwards, lunch and more chatting.

Joe took us through reflecting on one’s life decisions and behaviors and awe-inspiring, irreligious, outdoors. I learned a new term, ‘flow’, describing when you’re so immersed in something you’re enjoying that you don’t notice the time fly by. And that summed it up.
The highlight for me during the morning break was when we chatted about our similarities and differences.
I also enjoyed hearing about the revocation of tax benefits for Sanitarium in New Zealand.

... condemned already

Massive cross erected in town square in Eltham Victoria.

Four local churches have banded together to fund a huge cross that has now been erected in the town square. It has part of a bible text and an announcement of a friday church service.

 

Good Friday Combined Service: 

The Session agreed to accept an invitation to join with three other churches (Eltham Baptist, The Vine Baptist Hurstbridge, and Southern Cross Community Church) for a combined service on Good Friday. There is a cross up in the Town Square advertising the service. This is a great way to show Christian unity and witness in our community. Limited seating available, please arrive early.  Eltham Town Square 9:30am.

Elthampc.com.au/  (source)















Quite a turnout !

Quiet statement. No talking, just a couple of words from ... their text selection. ie ...condemned already.

Ok I messed up the spelling, oh and should tuck shirt in next time.

Myself and one of the churchgoers. Nice guy, very well educated, not a science denier, not an fundamentalist, not a bigot. We had a fabulous chat.

Short Video (shows part of the crowd and some of the singing)



Sponsoring churches are : 

Eltham Presbyterian Church 

Vinebaptist - Eltham and Hurstbridge Churches 

Southern Cross Community church

Appendix: the header of the cross starts with :  John 3:16 , the text itself continues.

For God so loved the world

that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is

condemned already.

Of particular concern is the Eltham Baptist's homophobic stance,
- see their statement marriage-plebiscite-resources/

See the especially revolting  Stewart's Talk

Local council link Nillumbik Council 

Did the council vote on this? Did they get money for it? The cross was apparently sponsored by the churches, ie not paid for by ratepayers. Contact Councillors and let me know. my twitter handle is @retep57 my email is veitch57@gmail.com 

This story is still developing, updates soon, this post will be modified as things change.

MY concerns are threefold:

1: Religious symbols in the public square ( literally in this case ).
2: Council advocating for this, in this case the Mayor Peter Clarke according to the Presbyterian church website. ( still researching - did Councillors vote? - unknown : was it by mayoral fiat? 
3: at least one of the churches is openly homophobic - see Eltham Baptist the vine video  - "Stewart's talk " 
 
( scribblings - The local paper is following story, is asking their readers to comment ( dv leader ) link coming . local and federal members  aware of this. ( Vicki , Jenny - no comment atm ) some people likely to attend the service who don't approve.. I have meetings / chat sessions in the pipeline with representatives from all these church groups. Don was there, quick hello, seems like a nice guy, will meet again for longer discussion)

Inside the scots church

http://www.thestirrer.com.au/inside-the-scots-church/

Peter Veitch is a former fundamentalist Christian who now describes himself as a “proudly evolved atheist”. He made his own quiet protest inside the Scots Church on Wednesday. This is his story.

I like churches, some of them anyway. I went in early, sat down, did some bible reading. Looked at the architecture, took a pic or two. Various staff were setting up, photography guys etc. had a very friendly chat with one of them, nice guy. One of the staff asked for my name, I said Peter. We shook hands. He asked if I had a ticket, I said no, and offered to leave. They kindly suggested they’d see if they could squeeze me in. Lovely gesture.

Fascinating watching them set up etc. I was asked if I wouldn’t mind distributing the program, they had about 700 apparently. No problem, happy to help. (amused me slightly that there’s almost 700 programs at ACL with my atheist fingerprints on them). A bunch of interactions, again all pleasant, I suppose they thought I was one of them.

I’m really a very introverted quiet person, I was planning on standing outside the church to hold a sign “Keep Religion Out of Politics” that another member of progressive atheists was bringing in. That explains why Brian, another progressive atheist member was holding two signs! I asked him to bring one in for me to hold.

He sent me a message to say he had arrived, I was in the church, had to put phone on silent otherwise my text tone (Lennon – Imagine No Religion) or my ringtone (Losing My Religion – Rem) might have been awkward.

They started late, intro remarks about “Scots college”, some audience giggles – it’s “Scots church”, then the minister took the podium & welcomed everyone, some goodies about Presbyterians not clapping etc., claps, giggles. Then the featured speaker (Metaxas) took the podium.

I’ve heard more than enough from ACL & him to not want to hear anymore. I thought I’d sneak out quietly but then read the program title  Fearless, Cultivating Courage”. I thought I’d try to build some. My heart was pounding, I thought, oh well why not, I’ve got my progressive atheist sweat shirt around my waist (label inside out). I thought I’d try a one person silent protest, I’m not a fan of the noisy stuff.

Anyway, spur of moment, Metaxas was praying, I put the sweatshirt on and quietly walked to the front and faced them all. “Proudly Evolved Atheist.” I guess they caught on pretty quickly. From the very back – down came my two escorts out. I was delighted that one I had already had a lovely chat earlier, anyway I told him I’d go quietly and was it ok if we waited till the prayer was over.

I think they wanted to take me out a side room, not sure, I asked if I could walk down the centre aisle. Yay no problem, no manhandling either. Quickly walked out in full view. Got part way out then one in the audience loudly said ” Jesus!” Too funny. I considered saying that was blasphemy (I used to be a fundamentalist Christian). Once in the foyer, more friendly chat with my escort out, rather amiable really.

I used to be a Seventh Day Adventist. I still have very close contacts with people in that church. ACL content has been featured on Adventist media. My personal view in the past would have aligned with the general SDA view. There’s a range of views within the church, alas some movement or at least agreement with the ACL type rhetoric. Official stance is Adam and Eve as special creation recently, six day creation week as literally true. SDA academic views often diverge from this, even some academics in the theology depts reject this.

My view on ACL view : I was a fundamentalist Christian. I get that the views and actions generally come from a place of love. My interactions, albeit limited, at the ACL event were all friendly without exception, even when I decided to do the silent protest with atheist sweatshirt on. My escorts were polite and kind. I needed help to break through police lines – from behind! I kindly asked my escort out to speak to the police to let me through. Very helpful. I had been standing behind, a bit trapped in really, didn’t know what to do so stood behind the police line with a victory wave. Silly I guess. The crowd looked like they didn’t know what side I was on. I was recognised by an LGBTI activist which was nice so that cleared it up, i.e. a welcome into the throng.

I get that they mean well, love is good – sure. However sometimes love informed by ignorance and superstition can be harmful, and in practice the loving actions can be received as the precise opposite (e.g. think of loving parents who earnestly pray instead of taking their child to the doctors).

I don’t buy the idea that the ACL and affiliates generally speak in terms of hate speech, yet functionally it would feel like it from the receiving end and that for very good reason. As an extreme example, perhaps Torquemada lovingly burned people to death to spare them eternal flames. While you might flinch at the Spanish Inquisition (you weren’t expecting that) the harsh views currently held by at least some ACL affiliates do in fact lead to jail, beatings, or death of LGBTI humans etc.

I know many current Christians who have views that are not just meant as loving and caring but actually are. The ACL views, most of them I find utterly revolting.

It’s sort of the so called golden rule, ‘do unto others as you want done unto you’. Alas this frame and their rules doesn’t always help others. Perhaps better expressed, do to others what they want done (or don’t do what they do want done). It’s a subtle Frame shift I guess, the 1st allows ” we think you should be straight, our version of Christian, etc” vs the view from the eyes of the other where it’s ” you are or are not a Christian, you might want to marry the person you love regardless of gender… Ok, we will support you, how can we help”

Religion and I.

As a very young child as best I can remember, we had no overt religion. In the mid 60's, I was 7, my parents started to go to Mt Lawley Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church in Perth West Australia). I went along trusting my parents and the church. When I was 14 we moved to Port Moresby ( Papua New Guinea ) I attended the SDA church there. I got baptized , left school , went to Sydney ( Adventist hospital) and did a nursing certificate. Had a great time, lovely people.

After completion of nursing certificate I moved to Warburton ( hospital) Victoria Australia. I became even more religious than before. After a few years the Des Ford stuff happened,  I left the Ellen as literal prophet, sanctuary/ investigative judgment dogmas but otherwise held the rest of the SDA views.Hearing these three things repeatedly in church I decided ( for biblical reasons ) to stop going , it felt wrong to me. I Moved the Sydney, again . I remained a Christian, attended a few church things but not SDA .

I stayed with those views until 2008. As a ( still ) young earth creationist Christian I started to read the so called new atheists with a view to debunking them. The next year I desperately, frantically read about 100 books on all I could think of to get to the bottom of this. By 2009 ( 1030 am August 12th) I realized I was an atheist now- oops. After a year of painful readjustment to this I moved towards being an "evangelical" atheist - bordering on anti theist. I became very active in atheist forums, joined various atheist groups etc.

After a while I realized more fully, that there are awful atheists and nice ones. My next step was issues based, ie work with those that would help make the world a better place whether or not they are religious. Basically my current stance is "the people who are good to other people- I'm with them". Maybe I am mellowing? Dunno, my most recent position is to worry about those who might need a religious view as comfort etc. I'm seeing the usual "arguments" approach as generally not going anywhere (in the short term at least?) Sometimes I think it's scarily easy to introduce doubt. Is it a good thing? Yes and no I think, depends. Where am I now? The question of whether or not the gods are real holds no interest for me anymore. The question of whether or not people believe there are gods matters not to me. How people behave matters very much to me . Are they good towards others? How people convert to a religious view or leave that view interests me a lot. Should we actively try to sway people? Sometimes I'm not sure.

Perhaps paradoxically, religion still holds my attention a lot, I still read rather a lot on religion related topics, and yet I am finding it increasingly difficult to discuss this. What I mean is that my mode of questioning religious views automatically finds its way into conversations on religion and I worry that some people really really don't want their religion questioned. Perhaps it gives them comfort? Perhaps they need it? Perhaps they are right? These days I am starting to get reluctant to discuss religion in person unless somebody else brings it up. I am fine online but in a face to face scenario it feels more and more like playing with fire. I had the rug of belief pulled out from under my feet, against my will (via philosophy books, atheist books and religious books. I don't buy the idea that atheists are happier than believers ( in general). My feeling is a tad like Nietzsche's "If you wish to strive for peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you wish to be a disciple of truth, then inquire.”

What if we can't choose?